Is it fair?

[crazyhorsejohnny]

As it stands now a team who decides to go with 12 players and borrows a player more than 3 times that team is obligated to go the reserve list and pick up a 13th player. What about a team that has 13 players and borrows players 3 or more times? That team should be penalized in some kind of way.

[otherwill]

penalized? I don't think so, I think you are looking at the 13th player in the wrong way.
Buy taking on more players we were trying to help the leauge to sustain its-self in the future buy not loosing 7 players and and yeah some were ranked lower than the leauge average but most of the teams decided to try and keep the leauge healthy, and a few at bat's less a year are worth it, because it may mean a couple more years of at bats.
beause of the extra players used up in the draft some teams actually on paper are weaker.
conflicts are going to come up and people are not going to make it. The a's had 13 players last year + we went to the reserve list twice and we had games when we still had to get players. interesting enough we needed 5 players this year
having the 13 player was an attempt to also cut down on needing to borrow players.
why is it that having 13 players is seen as a penalty? it's one more guy to have a fun time playing ball with and to have some pop's with after the game. then again I guess adding a player to a team that is almost 10 points above the leauge average! would be considered a penalty because even if you did get lucky and get a player that might get a rating of 7.5 to 8.5 the team average would still drop.
If we have 20+ players out next year to the draft and only need 6-7 players to top up then maybe we go to 9 teams or 10 and back down to 12 or even 11 players per team and everyone is playing like crazy.
The penalty I would suggest would be that that team's player ranking should be raised by 2 points so they would have to draft lower in next years draft. not that that matters.
I have been in this leauge for 3 years and I have seen the good teams get better and the middle of the pack teams slowly get weeker, and Without a major vote to dramatically strengthen the weekest team that would have stayed the same as well.
the leauge will cycle and leaders will change, but hopefully, by the actions taken by some teams, it will be here and strong for a couple more years at least.!!!
to complain about a 13th player being added, now! is wrong and a waist of time!
there was a time and place and it has passed.

[crazyhorsejohnny]

All I'm saying is that every team in this league should face some kind of consequence if they borrow players more than 3 times. Not just teams (team) with 12. Your comment: "I guess adding a player to a team that is almost 10 points above the league average! would be considered a penalty because even if you did get lucky and get a player that might get a rating of 7.5 to 8.5 the team average would still drop."
We could have easily gone to 13 but we passed on the pitcher that eventually went to the Knights in the regular draft because i was hoping the Drafts would take him. And I'm pretty sure we (GOB) are the last team to start the year with 13 and finish with 13 (a couple years ago).

As for the comment : "to complain about a 13th player being added, now! is wrong and a waist of time!
there was a time and place and it has passed." First off it wasn't done properly. Whenever we want to make changes to the constitution other than at the AGM, a special meeting is "supposed" to be called and a whole procedure is to be followed. And of course it didn't go down that way. So why have a constitution? And by the way not too many people showed up at the last AGM meeting. And that's when we should be talking about rules and bylaws not 5 months later.

And when I joined the league about 6 yrs ago the GOB were the worst team in the league. We were rated the lowest by far also. We won 4 games the 1st year and 6 the 2nd. Slowly we built the team by the draft (Gilles,Rejean,Jonathan,Serge...) and trades (Norm,Yves). And not once did we cry about how the draft worked. The first couple years we were topping up with 4 or 5 players. But eventually the team got better because we were patient and understood that this was the best system in the long run. It's not perfect but what is. We took players that were rated low like Jonathan Roy and he is now an excellent CF and good hitter. And we picked Rejean Doiron SS late in the 2nd round and he's the best SS in the league now. It can be done.

The only team last year that wasn't competitive was Stan's and we took some steps this year to hopefully make them better.

Finally, the past few years it seems like GOB, Blues and Guzzlers are always near the top of the standings. One of the reasons why is that not often do these teams have to borrow players.

[crazyhorsejohnny]

Your comment: "If we have 20+ players out next year to the draft and only need 6-7 players to top up then maybe we go to 9 teams or 10 and back down to 12 or even 11 players per team and everyone is playing like crazy."

Everybody knows that wouldn't work. The only way this league can have more teams is by letting teams in like we did with the Rogues. There's not enough "A" pitchers to have 9 or 10 teams to do it the way you described.

[otherwill]

you still have not answerd why do you consider the 13 player a penalty?
if I cannot make you see that it was a positve move for the time being adding players to the leauge then look at it this way, 6 teams decided to be penalized at the start of the season we pre-penalized our selves, by taking the 13 player now instead of later. If we miss 3 games without players we have already had a player added. we just skipped the actual playing of the games. Does that work for anaswer. If you and the rouges can go the whole season at 12 then you are at an advantage over every other team,if you think that 12 players is a positive.
AS well I realize that the leauge will run in cycles teams will go up and down in talent, but I am sure I am not the only one that feels that the GOB's are the last team that should be complaining about the 13 players rule. 3 points
1 you, on paper, the best team in the league
2 you have less players, so more at bat's for your better ranked players
3 if any teams are going to complain about the 13 player additions it should be the lower ranked teams, ( bangers, A's) 4 players that could have gone to them were used up by the other teams.
you are at and advantage (with 12) be happy about it.
look at it like this, every other team is being penalized already you don't have to be , so just show up.
I am sorry but to me, to complain about this, is not flatering. To be asking to "penalize" other teams for what I see as a act of generousity to the leauge by already adding one player to our rosters(as I stated pre-penalizing if that makes more sense) for the futre.
It is sadly a dieing sport, as you said there are not enought "A" pitchers, there are not enough players, in general. So 13 is the number that we decided on and as I said the time has passed lets bring this up in the november meetings and do it up right or cancel it then.
UNTIL THEN PLAY BALL!!!!!!!!!!!!

[crazyhorsejohnny]

You obviously didn't read what i said. My point is that teams with 13 players should face some sort of penalty if they borrow players more than 3 times just like a team with 12. I'm not saying they should go to the reserve list but something at least.

If not a team with 13 players could borrow 6 or 7 times and not worry about it. Especially teams that have players playing in other leagues and weekend tournaments.

[otherwill]

I understand, what you posted, but how is the team with 12 being penalized?
If it is makeing them go to 13 players..... then teams ith 13 have already been penalized.
self penalized. And if a team with 12 players is forced to go to 13 they also just like the rest of the teams with 13 already, will not beforced to take a 14th player and then they can borrow players everygame for the rest of the season, if they want.
My argument is that all the teams were asked if they wanted to go to 12 or 13 players all teams could have stayed at 12 but it would mean that 6-8 players would not have been drafted and we as a leauge would possibly loose these potential players to other leauges or lobball or 3 pitch leauges, for the good off the leauge 6 teams at the draft decided to help the leauge but taking an extra player.
How are the teams with 12, that get their 3 strikes, being penalized?
your argument is that being forced to take on a 13th player is a penalty? am I correct?
If so then all the other teams that already took on the 13 player have been penalized. and your team has not. If you miss 3 games you are in the same boat as the rest of us.

If that is your logic, You have to look at the stiuation, as any team can borrow 6 or 7 times and no team is being penalized. It is just the teams that chose to start with 12 are at an advantage at the begining of the season and if they can keep it up for the whole season then good for them.
You seem to think you are at an advantage with 12 players because going to 13 is the problem. so 3 misses you loose your advantage over all the ther teams in the leauge. you will then be even with the rest of the teams.

AM I making sense? If not come over and see me on sunday we will discuss this over a beer, I will buy. Maybe we are just looking at the situation from fundamentlly diffent sides.
Does anyone see what I am trying to argue? or am I just completely screwed up on this subject?

[crazyhorsejohnny]

WE didn't stay at 12 because we thought it would give us an advantage over other teams. We did it because in the past we "usually" don't borrow players too often. And i know also that most players on our team prefer it that way.

With my health problems we might go to 13 eventually anyways.

[Shannon Borho]

I think the point that will is trying to make is that you view going to 13 players as being a punishment and the only team that isn't receiving the so-called punishment is the top rated, defending champions. If you are correct in stating that a 13th player would be a penalty, then that team got even stronger because all the other teams are being punished.

I have to agree with him due to the fact that the GOB (apparently) were going to follow suit and go with 13 until a certain player decided not to enter the draft, then they went with 12 (despite the fact that one player didn't get drafted). The way I saw it they were only willing to go to 13 if that improved your team, although you could argue that they were only willing to go to 13 if it meant getting a player that was on the team last season.

I understand what you are saying, where you think that there should be some form of action taken against teams with 13 players that cannot field 9 players multiple times throughout the season. Why is action taken against a team with 12 players taken but not on a team with 13?? Obviously you have this strong opinion because the team you are on have only 12 players. The best solution that I can think of at the moment would be to take away the team's $100 that they are receiving from the league for going to 13 players in the first place. Its probably not going to be much of a deterant but at least it's something.

[rejtable]

have to agree with him due to the fact that the GOB (apparently) were going to follow suit and go with 13 until a certain player decided not to enter the draft, then they went with 12 (despite the fact that one player didn't get drafted). The way I saw it they were only willing to go to 13 if that improved your team, although you could argue that they were only willing to go to 13 if it meant getting a player that was on the team last season.

I have no dog in this fight, but Shannon, I do think this is more than a bit unfair. Let me preface by saying I have NO idea why we didn't draft that 13th player, nor do I have much understanding of why Rick (the presumed 13th player you refer to) decided not to play.

But, regardless of the improving/hurting our team angle of going to 13, Rick would have been a special case in that surely the GOB would have taken him over even better players if the situation presented itself. He was a long-time friend of many of our players, and universally well liked on the team.

I'm just saying I don't think the implication that the GOB were ONLY out to improve ourselves (which you did play down in that last sentence there) is fair at all with regards to the specific 13th player in question in your post.

Rej

[Shannon Borho]

Maybe it was a bit unfair for me to make that implication based on this one incident but this isn't the only time that IMHO that the GOB were more interested in looking out for themselves than the league. Not that I think you guys are breaking any rules or that other teams don't do some of the same things but it seems that the GOB never get the wrong end of the stick on any deal. Of course, everything you guys do get magnified by the fact that overall, you have been the best team in the league over the last 2 or 3 years now and your team rating is that much higher than the other teams (which is partially explained by your good late round drafting in previous seasons).

But lets put it this way, if you guys were at 12 players entering the draft, would you have went to 13 players if it meant that the 13th player could be your first round draft pick, i.e. the 7th best player in the draft as opposed to a 3rd round pick which would have been the lowest rated available?

[rejtable]

Certainly not interested in (or knowledgeable enough) in a discussion of the politics of the league or the GOB or whatever. I play ball, I'm not on the debate team.

[crazyhorsejohnny]

admin said:

But lets put it this way, if you guys were at 12 players entering the draft, would you have went to 13 players if it meant that the 13th player could be your first round draft pick, i.e. the 7th best player in the draft as opposed to a 3rd round pick which would have been the lowest rated available?

Like i said earlier, if we would have gone to 13 we would have picked a 3rd pitcher (young guy that went to Knights in regular draft). But we passed because we thought Stan's could improve by picking him.

And don't forget that we were the last team to start a year with 13 and finish the year with 13. The 13th player was Mark "Shoeshine" Jolicoeur who we picked in the 3rd round.